radionotes podcast episodes

Jessica O’Donoghue

by | Mar 5, 2023 | episodes | 0 comments

Jessica O’Donoghue

Rise Up is the latest album from Jessica O’Donoghue, an artist who has received classical training from Sydney University, the Victorian College of The Arts and was a Young Artist at London’s Covent Gardens.

Jessica is also a recipient of an APRA-AMCOS Art Music Award for Performance of the Year, has been awarded from The Australian Institute of Music a fellowship for Outstanding Achievements and Services to the Australian Music and Performing Arts Industry and been part of the AIR Women in Music Mentorship Program Award.

Latest Single is called ‘Lullay My Heart’.

While in Sydney for the Australian Podcast Awards John invited Jessica for this unscripted chat…

Click ‘play’ to listen… may take few seconds to load: 

IMAGE CREDIT: Daniel Boud 

Interview recorded at the Adina Apartments in Chippendale, New South Wales

SHOW NOTES: Jessica O’Donoghue


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Feature Guest:

New Single ‘Lullay My Heart’ we spoke during the chat:

Next Feature Guest: Joe Hildebrand

  • Opinion writer, broadcaster and fan of a very special Adelaide band will be our guest.

Episode with Jessica O’Donoghue available on Podbean:

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CREDITS

Theme/Music: Martin Kennedy and All India Radio   

Web-design/tech: Steve Davis

Voice: Tammy Weller  

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TRANSCRIPT

First version of provided by REV– we do an edit for errors before posting (yes, some things do get missed). Check to audio podcast, before quoting wider.

John Murch:
Welcome to radionotes.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Thank you.

John Murch:
What’s your earliest memory of music in your life?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Oh, that’s a big one. I grew up in a super musical family. My grandparents on both sides were professional artists and musicians. And then my dad, Rory O’Donoghue, was quite a well known musician, comedian, performer. So I just grew up surrounded by music. I think my earliest memory ever would just be listening to Dad, sitting on the couch, playing his guitar and singing. Music was my life right from the beginning.

John Murch:
Focusing on the younger years. What was that parental engagement with your music like? So you were engaging with him playing the music. What was the other way around? And I guess what I’m saying was, was there a level of encouragement or was it more hands off?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
It was very hands off. I’m the youngest of four kids in my family and so my parents had basically given up. They were outnumbered and exhausted by my siblings, which for me I think was a blessing. I never felt any pressure to follow in my artist before me footsteps. I was just surrounded by it and I just loved it. It was home to me, it was connection for me and I came to it in my own way. And as I developed as an artist myself, there was that encouragement and understanding of what I was doing. And I think that was a blessing. I grew up in an environment and a family who understood the industry, knew that it was a job, it was a real viable path to follow. Not an easy one, that’s for sure. But my parents weren’t there saying, “Go and get a real job.” At the same time, they weren’t like, “You are going to be a star. You must do this and practise eight hours a day.” And they were very hands off and just let me find it in my own way.

John Murch:
Who were the mentors at that stage, then? If it wasn’t the family in that aspect, who were the mentors? Who were you looking to for guidance to get on with that passion?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Look, I mean my dad was such an inspiration to me. I used to just watch him in awe as he created music, but also just worked, that was his job. It was just so inspiring in many ways, but also just so run-of-the-mill in many ways. And I think for me, that meant I really took for granted that influence in my life for many years until a lot later on when it was like, “Wow, so how blessed was I?” But for the most part it was like, “Oh, so I like singing, I’m good at it, I like music. That’s going to be my job just like it’s my dad’s job.”
And he goes out on gigs and he writes music for jingles and he’s on telly and he does this and that. A whole host of stuff. It was just an everyday occurrence. I didn’t appreciate that people would pay lots of money to go and see my dad sing because he was just always sitting on our couch and singing and playing the guitar. And it was amazing, but also it was just very normal. It was just the soundtrack to my everyday life. I think my grandfather was a big influence. He actually worked with actors and did Feldenkrais and a lot of body movement and he was quite invested in my development from that sense.

John Murch:
That I think is where the more theatrical aspects of your performance comes from.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yes, look that and my grandmother, Sybil O’Donoghue, who was Dad’s mum and her husband Terry, who were both opera singers in the D’Oyly Carte Opera Company. So they were very much this operatic, theatrical, onstage, larger than life figures. And granddad, who was my mum’s dad and actually my grandmother who was my mum’s mum was a singing teacher as well. So they were a little bit more, I guess, I don’t know, domestic in their musical activities. And Granddad worked with actors in theatre, which I really enjoyed. And I think I turned to Granddad more because it was a less direct comparison with what he was doing and what I was doing. I did feel a lot of pressure, not because they put it on me from my father and my grandmother, but just by the very nature of I was just really following quite clearly in their footsteps. Whereas Granddad, on my mother’s side, he was in the arts, but it was a whole nother sector and I felt safer there. I felt there was a distance and I could connect more without feeling pressure.

John Murch:
Did teen angst ever play a part? Did you reach a point where you did want to break away from that family unit?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Oh, definitely. I think for the most part of my career I was trying to break away from family expectations and imagined pressures. Dad and I used to perform together a lot just by the fact that we lived together and at all our family functions and all the parties we’d go to, we’d always get up and play together. And my brother played bass and Dad played guitar and we’d sing duets and I was always called up to sing. So he was such a big part of my journey and I needed to find myself apart from that. I didn’t want to be Rory O’Donoghue’s daughter and I didn’t want to be Sybil O’Donoghue’s granddaughter either. As I ventured into opera, that was another roof over my head in many ways.

John Murch:
There must have been a point where opera was it. When was that?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
That was as I was leaving high school and going into uni and I thought, “Okay, well now I need to get serious about this music thing.” I’d already done heaps of performing and been involved in music for a long time, but then I’m like, “Okay, well now it’s time to make it a real career. And how do I develop my skills and my craft to the extreme?” And I wanted to do all the right things, being the perfectionist that I am. And to me, I guess the most developed form of singing for my craft was opera and the classical technique. So I’m like, “Okay, well that’s what I’ll do and I’ll go and study music at university.” And I wanted to do a bachelor, so I did my Bachelor of Music. So that really led me into more classical forms of music. Because I don’t know why I didn’t consider the jazz course. I think for me it was more about the vocal technique and developing my instrument to its extreme.

John Murch:
So it was more about the instrument than it was the composition at that point or?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Correct. Yeah. Absolutely. I just wanted to be the best player of my instrument and to me that was delving into classical technique.

John Murch:
When did composition then become a thing? Because it’s a wonderful thing you do do. So when did that come in? Was that in middle of uni?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
I think it was always brewing in the background. I had a lot to say and I had a lot of opinions about musical composition and I put a lot of myself into all my performance and I knew very soon I would want more agency over my artistic expression than purely performing other people’s works. But it came really quite late in my personal career. And I think that’s because I got on this opera treadmill that took me many years to go along and get to a point where I’m like, “This is not where I belong.” And that was a good probably 10 years with uni and young artists programmes and things like that. And it was as I was just removing myself from the operatic industry, just going, “I’ve taken a wrong turn somewhere along the line.”

John Murch:
By doing that though, did you end up with a bit of a community because of that?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
The opera people weren’t my people. I just felt so at odds in that environment. And I guess it was a battle internally about feeling pressured to do this elite style of performance against actually what my heart was saying, that I just wanted to express myself as an artist and connect to human beings. And I thought that I could go in there as myself and really morph the operatic industry, but it was just too big and ghastly to have an impact on in that way. And it defeated me in many ways.

John Murch:
You wanted to jazz it up?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
I did want to jazz it up. I just wanted to show them that… Well, I was interested in human connection and I just didn’t find it in opera for many reasons. And actually all the while, well I had probably halfway through that 10 year journey, I started rebelling and reconnecting with my pop connection. So that was when I was singing with Coda, doing all the big music festivals with those guys and really feeding my soul in that way. But I would sneak off in the middle of a operatic production, I wouldn’t tell anyone because I’d get in huge trouble if I did. And I’d fly down, do a big music festival and stay up all night and party.

John Murch:
Yeah, you were having an affair with Coda.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
I was having an affair with Coda and the evil pop music and then I’d fly back and put on my other hat. And I really did feel very split personality during that time. And then it was when I just said, “No, this is enough. I need to actually re-find the right path.” And that’s when I started experimenting with songwriting and it was just so healing.

John Murch:
And composition as well as I was saying?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. And composition.

John Murch:
So at that point, you’ve got a vehicle for your freedom, haven’t you?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
That’s right, yeah. I’ve had such an eclectic performance history, which includes opera, but jazz and cabaret and music theatre and early music. But when I started composing, that was a place where I could bring all those things together. I couldn’t find that anywhere else except in my own music.

John Murch:
How does it feel to just sit down and compose? Because I get a feeling initially at least composing is just you.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah, definitely. That is my process. I like to get out what I need to get out initially, I just find it a really healing, coming home process. Performing is very outward focus, you’re giving a lot, trying to connect outward. Whereas for me, the initial process of songwriting is really coming in and connecting to what it is that I need to process or say.

John Murch:
How do you deal with the tension that is being so outward so often in the terms of performing? Because you come from a family that did that, performing all the time, pleasing the masses on mass often. How do you deal with that?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
I’m a very inward, quiet, private person actually. So I find it really taxing and exhausting, even though I really love it. But I give everything in my work and in my performing. And then the way I counteract that is to just totally shut down close inwards. I really need quiet, me time, which is harder and harder to find these days.

John Murch:
Does that inspire more composition or?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah, it does.

John Murch:
Okay. So you don’t need to break away from composition, composition is still your friend at that stage?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Totally. Yeah. The composition is what happens in those quiet moments when I’m just with myself, that’s when my ideas come and I feel free and safe to let things out.

John Murch:
Parachute was a single that I was so proud to put on the wireless back in 2016 and I knew there was better things to come after that than there has been. And Rise Up is the new album, Good Grief, the lead single, we’ll talk about in just a moment. But the album overall.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Rise Up as an album is really tracking two parallel paths, which are intimate personal journeys. One is following a journey of grief after the loss of my father under quite tragic circumstances. And then the other one is the loss of myself as I knew it, as a woman becoming a mother. And just that woman’s journey where you grieve past versions of yourself and come into your own in a whole new and unexpected way. Take very similar paths side by side.

John Murch:
And is the central hinge of that, the idea of family in terms of the closeness maybe of a parent and a daughter, a mother and their child? Is that what we’re talking about?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Not necessarily. I would say it’s a connection to one’s self and one’s identity I guess within the context of family and those family relationships. So the journey around the loss of my father was really processing deeply what that relationship was and what it is now that it’s gone, revisiting that relationship and all the amazing things about it and coming to acceptance of that it’s not there anymore and what that means in a father-daughter relationship.
And then the other side of it is, I guess, that shift in relationship to myself as I’ve changed from being the individual woman in the world that I thought I would be and then shifting to become a mother and what that means to my identity and how I relate to myself and relate to my children and therefore relate to humanity. Yeah, I think the album was really born out of that collision of juxtaposition of life events. Because when Dad died, my second child was two months old. So there was this collision of losing someone really significant in my life and gaining someone really significant in my life at the same time.

John Murch:
Rise Up the single might be about something a little bit differently out on?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Expands this concept of in a relationship with self and being a woman, I guess accepting and coming into my own power in a way that I hadn’t expected. Get told these promises of, “Well, women are equal and you can be independent, you can be whatever you want and you can-

John Murch:
[Vacuum cleaning sound finishes the background] Thank you.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
… “do whatever job you want.”

John Murch:
I’m sorry, I’m not sure if this is inappropriate, but I think your father would’ve liked that comedy.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yes, he would’ve gone crazy that noise in the background. I don’t know, I guess it’s misleading expectations and pipe dreams, thinking you’re going to have… I found becoming a mother really difficult basically. And all of a sudden my independence was taken from me and my agency over my time and my choices and the trajectory of my life was massively impacted. And I found myself thrust into a much more structured framework than I would’ve liked.

John Murch:
And not a framework about your time, about another human’s time. And two now.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. That’s right. And two. And I was really conflicted by that want to be an amazing mother in a certain way, but also I had this calling to be this free spirited artist that could just express myself whenever and however I felt. The two didn’t quite match up. But I guess it took me a long time to come into my power as a mother and a woman in that sense and really accept and acknowledge and appreciate actually all that has come with that.

John Murch:
Did being a mother, for you, not have as great a currency about being a woman, wasn’t so huge in your outlook, your plans?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
No, it wasn’t. I guess for me, I don’t know whether it was just the time that I had kids or my personal circumstances, but it was tricky. It actually impacted negatively on my passion to be an artist. I couldn’t find a way to balance the two in a satisfactory way.

John Murch:
But from that, we now have an album.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah, totally.

John Murch:
And I have a feeling by the end of this conversation we’re going to hear about a lot of other works that you are now working on. So something did change in that, there was some sort of realisation somewhere in there?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Totally. And I think I had to go into some really dark places and grieve for a sense of loss of what I thought I wanted and then settle into this really wonderful, beautiful place of acceptance and joy, seeing things in a different way.

John Murch:
And at the same time, the world was giving you other grief that was quite uncontrollable, but nothing you could control. It was the individual and what they were going through at the time.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah, that’s right. And both felt thrust into chaos then just had to find a home in that.

John Murch:
How did music help with that? Was music still in the picture and how did it help?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. Well, music left for about two years, for the two hard years. I just was thrust into, I don’t know what you’d call it, just-

John Murch:
Numbness?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. Maybe. And I just had to pack it all away very quickly. Obviously there was so much heartbreak that I just couldn’t process because I was staring literally at this new innocent soul that had entered my life and that was looking at me for nurturing and loving and guidance. And I just had to create a beautiful, welcoming space for this new baby to enter into. I couldn’t fall apart and allow this child to come into some chaotic, broken home with a mother that’s falling to pieces, I just couldn’t do that. So I just put it all aside. I knew that there was an album in there, but I just had to wait until it was the time to really sift through and work through all that stuff and find a couple of solitary spaces where I could really pull out some pretty big things.

John Murch:
Start of 2017, a dark time. And I’m still trying to figure out how Parachute actually helped me. So I’m wondering what Parachute is about and why it came into existence and maybe that will help me understand why it was such an important song during that time.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Parachute. Yeah, I still love Parachute.

John Murch:
This is from the Emerge EP.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
I guess for me, Parachute is about not delving into the darkness and being too afraid to touch that ground where all the frightening things are. So it’s about pleading for someone to be your parachute, to keep you lifted and distant from those scary truths that are lurking in the real world.

John Murch:
And in your case, nothing like a newborn to do that?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yes. Exactly.

John Murch:
So thank you for releasing Parachute. We’re currently in conversation with Jessica O’Donoghue and we are speaking today on the back of the album Rise Up. One of the singles from it is called Good Grief

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Good Grief is probably the most closely connected to the loss of my dad. And it’s really about that grieving process and why it’s called Good Grief is that it’s a relief at finally being able to enter into that process, which is painful and beautiful and healing and it’s a faceted emotional experience. There’s pain and beauty and it was about seeing all those things. I really wanted to dive in and experience it wholly, the good and the bad and not omit any part of that experience.

John Murch:
How are you finding performing that one live?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. Look, again, sometimes it’s really hard and other times it’s really beautiful and healing. With Parachute in mind, for much of my time I really just put off really delving into those experiences and really fully living them. And that didn’t serve me well. So I found good grief and the song, Good Grief, is about just immersing myself in that experience, feeling it through all the layers and living life at its fullest with all the goods and all the bads and just really properly being in every moment.

John Murch:
The follow on for Rise Up there, We Are Single, you’ve mentioned to me prior that it’s birthed from the album, but it’s not on the album. Can I ask you direct, Jessica, why is that the case? Why did this song, that you’re about to talk to us about, not make it onto the album?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
This song, it’s called Lullay My Liking and it was the first song that I wrote when I went to write the album. I decided it was time to write the album, so I carved out some space in a studio and planned it because I have to plan it because I’ve got kids and I sat down to write and nothing came out. And I’m like, “Oh God. Okay, maybe I’m not ready to process. Maybe this album’s not ready to come out.”

John Murch:
Maybe I’ll buy a few more journals for my desk.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Exactly.

John Murch:
“Oh, I need more plants in my life.”

Jessica O’Donoghue:
It was a total anti-climax. Here I was, two to three years building up this, “All right. This album’s coming, it’s been brewing, it’s just going to pour out of me.”

John Murch:
“Bought a dress for the day.”

Jessica O’Donoghue:
And it just like nothing happened. So I left after four hours with nothing and I’m like, “Okay, let’s maybe try that again next week.” So I calved out, went to the studio and sat down and out came this song immediately. I had an idea in my head of what I wanted to write about and out came this song and I’m like, “Whoa. Well, this whole songwriting thing is pretty easy. I’m a genius.” Oh, it came out-

John Murch:
You’d forgotten what happened the week beforehand?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Exactly.

John Murch:
Preparation was never a thing.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
And it came out pretty much exactly as you’ll hear it. And I just recorded it on my iPhone to capture it. And then as I was on the bus on the way home, I was listening back and it just suddenly hit me that actually it wasn’t my song, it was Dad’s song and I could just hear him. It was his everything. And it was so profound when I realised that he just gifted me this song and it was the most profound and powerful songwriting experience I’ve ever had.
That was one song. And then subsequently, I wrote other songs that came onto the album and then the album was a long time in the making as well. And we were at the end stages and I was talking to my producer, Alyx Dennison and my engineer David Trumpanis and we’re like, “We’re so close, but there’s just this one song Lullay In My Heart that’s just not sitting on the album. And I don’t know what’s happening, this song, man, it’s just got a life of its own.” And it wouldn’t be changed and we couldn’t really change the whole rest of the album to accommodate this song. And I sat with it for weeks just going, “What are we going to do with this?” And then I realised, “Oh my God, this song does not belong.”

John Murch:
Cover song.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
It’s a cover song. Exactly. And I just took it off and it was like the album just locked in. It all just went swoosh and the album was complete and the song was so happy being on its own.

John Murch:
Before the press misquote me here. It’s inspired by, it’s not a song that he wrote that you remembered and now-

Jessica O’Donoghue:
No. It was like-

John Murch:
To be clear. “Women’s Day, the last song by Rory O’Donoghue performed by his daughter after his death.”

Jessica O’Donoghue:
No, it’s full woo-woo ju-ju. Exactly. Fully sent from another place through me. It was quite amazing. But I still honestly, I call it that song because yeah, he lives and breathes in that song and the message was from him to us about forgiveness. And it was actually such an unlock, it was a gift for me and the family because he’s suicided, a way of explaining. It just unlocked so much for me personally and I hope for loved ones that knew dad as to kind of, I don’t know, it was-

John Murch:
Do you mind if we include the Australian Story in the show notes?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah, of course.

John Murch:
So Australian Story is a documentary series. It’s about your father’s life, Rory’s life, and the issues of the later part of his life. And that’ll be in the show notes and it’ll explain some of what we’re referring to here. If you need help, 13-11-14 is Lifeline’s number, 24 hours or resources at beyondblue dot org dot au. Talk to us more about that message in this song from the perspective of what you hope it is to achieve.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
It’s a tricky one. It’s such a sensitive topic to talk about so I just want to be careful about the language that I use. But for me it was, I guess, we all wanted Dad to just be different from what he was, I guess. And I think around serious mental illness, unless you can really understand what that experience is, there’s often an idea that, well, can’t you just think positive thoughts? Or can’t you just suck it up or just forget about it? And you just so want that person to be someone different, not have the experience that they’re having. Rather than holding a space for who they are and what they’re going through and trying to meet them where they are. It’s always devastating when you lose a loved one in that way. And there are just so many questions about why and weren’t we enough? And why couldn’t you stay for the grandchildren? Why couldn’t you stay for us? Why couldn’t you just not think the things that you were thinking?

John Murch:
But the question why is not an answer?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
No, it’s not. And I guess what his song really showed was just that. I mean, it was really him just saying, “I’m sorry I couldn’t be the person you wanted me to be.” And for me it was just so disarming that message. It was, again, a lesson in acceptance of just going, “Well, who are we to force him to endure a lifetime of hell as such?” And that’s not to say there are lots and lots of ways to seek help and overcome these things if you are experiencing them. But for him, he just couldn’t find that. And yeah, it was just an acceptance of letting go and forgiving him.

John Murch:
What concerns me is that it’s those that give so much that seem to hold it in or even experience at the level for which you’re explaining there. It just reminds me at least how important it is for those support agencies for those that perform for us are looked after in whatever way as well. And that’s what also concerns me when I speak to a performer like you, of asking, “How are you going?” Because obviously there is the situation your father was in, but there’s also the everyday struggles of being a performer. And we don’t have to talk about the last two years because we know what it’s been like for the last two years. We don’t need to rehash that. We need to look forward and see what other challenges are going to be coming up in the next years, decades, et cetera, for you as a performer. And that’s why when I sincerely ask, “How are you going with the performing?” Which I’m doing now, how are you going with that? How are you going with it, Jessica?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
This year’s been interesting. I think it was such an interesting time in a different way where live performance and so much was taken away from us. I really felt this sense of loss and disconnect, forgot who I was and what I was good at and what I did and I just suddenly didn’t feel like myself because I was missing such a major part of my life. And then there was the shock of it all coming back so quickly on such a massive scale because essentially this year’s been about fitting two and a half years of work into the one year. Yeah, and I actually just lost my mojo completely. It was really confronting to get my flow back with performing and everything that I do, it was just like, “Oh my God, that’s right. Can I still sing? Can I still perform? Can I still do this? I don’t know.”

John Murch:
And some amazing artists have just come with you. I think I saw Elana Stone of all people working with you.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yes.

John Murch:
I have an absolute professional admiration for Elana Stone. I saw her headlining with an artist called Megan Washington at The Vangaurd many a year ago. I reckon it was 2009. Anyway, back then Elana was the headline and I was just like, “This performer is going to go places.” Talk to us about some of these other musicians and creatives that have been part of this journey. So you haven’t been stuck?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. Look, I mean, I think that that’s something that we missed in our musical community. I mean, COVID robbed from us is that we are such a strong family, but we meet up and we connect on the scene and out there in gigs and doing what we do, it’s not-

John Murch:
In the alley ways.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. But you don’t call up Elana Stone and go, “Hey, let’s have a dinner party.” You’re with each other working and in the scene. So we really missed that incidental connection. And so it’s been awesome really releasing this album this year and really reconnecting with all those in inspiring artists. I’m so about the collective and collaborating and joining forces with awesome people. I feed off that, I get inspiration for that. I like to start by getting my little bit out and then I bring it to the table. And I love then that process of chucking it around, people taking it and contributing and bouncing off it and it morphing and changing in that beautiful kind of communal landscape.

John Murch:
You’re like a star who brings in a galaxy, you start shining and then the whole galaxy comes around that. It’s great.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah, I love that.

John Murch:
And I want to talk to you about the Sydney Festival, which I know contemporary opera is what brings you to the Sydney Festival in 2023. Can I ask what you’re doing for Sydney Fest and what’s happening there?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. So I still do a lot of contemporary opera performing and freelancing for contemporary art music composers.

John Murch:
Stressing the word contemporary because the old opera-

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Not interested in traditional opera at all. Yeah. So to that end, we’re doing the Australian premiere of Mary Finsterer’s new opera, Antarctica, which is a really beautiful work and it’s quite a stunning production. And I’m singing and performing in that with Sydney Chamber Opera Company at Carriageworks.

John Murch:
I heard it went off in Amsterdam, in its world premiere.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yes, in its world premiere.

John Murch:
Talk to us about that. So you went to Amsterdam for that?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah, it was awesome. Yeah, it was heaps of fun. Played as part of Holland Festival over there. And it’s a collaboration with Asko|Schönberg who’s a leading contemporary new music ensemble.

John Murch:
What does contemporary opera mean for you?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Look, for me, I have a really interesting relationship with opera. I feel like it should be the most powerful of all genres in terms of storytelling and connecting with an audience because you’ve got music, drama, design, live performance, all on this very grand scale.

John Murch:
Desire, passion, all these human emotions.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. And the tools to express that on such an epic scale. But it just falls so short, it’s so alienating and also it’s embedded within the works as such out of date and damaging narratives, stereotyping, violence against women. I guess I’m so passionate about the art form, but I’m also just passionate about using it for good, not for evil.

John Murch:
Are you interested in the subverting of that old narrative and just going, “No, this is what it’s going to be now.” So subverting in terms of, “Yeah, we are going to beat the old narrative by actually presenting it in its new clothes.”

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. Look, I think opera’s been trying to do that for years is to take the old works and do something with them. But I’m just like, “Enough of that.” Yes, there were some masterpieces written back in the day, but man, there are masterpieces to come. So let’s evolve the opera through commissioning new works by composers that are still alive and stories that relate to our diverse and modern audience. We should be using that art form to tell contemporary, current, important narratives.

John Murch:
What is this story about that we can catch at the Sydney Festival in 2023?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Antarctica is an interesting journey. It talks about climate a lot, refers to what we’re doing to the planet, but also I guess where we’re heading as a people. It raises questions about religion and belief in the context of personal human journeys and discovery. Yeah, it really maps how Antarctica was discovered and what they thought that they were going to find versus what they did find.

John Murch:
I’ve got Greek mythology in my head for the Rise Up release and I don’t know whether or not I’m stuck on a song by Emily Hatton called Hades or whether or not Greek mythology plays a part in Rise Up. So does Greek mythology play a part in the Rise Up album?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
It does. So the actual single Rise Up is inspired by a traditional Greek song called Dance of Zalongo, which tells the story of women of Souli who when they were captured by the Ottoman Empire, instead of women and children being imprisoned, actually mass suicide. And they all jumped off a cliff with babes in arms, dancing and singing Dance of Zalongo, which is the traditional Greek song. So it tells that story, which is pretty heavy.

John Murch:
Well, it’s heavy because of your father’s journey, but also you and motherhood.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yes.

John Murch:
And here are mother’s doing something that your father chose.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yes, exactly. It’s just a little bit of light listening for all the people tuning in.

John Murch:
Thanks. Coming up-

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Stay with us free-

John Murch:
Coming up, we’ll be talking about the economy and should John Howard make a return to cricket?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Well, actually, I first came in contact with Dance of Zalongo when I was in uni and I was singing with Renaissance Players, Winsome Evans, I don’t know if you know Winsome. She’s a wonderful woman. She directed the Renaissance Players and she was quite a eclectic, lovely personality. But I sung Dance of Zalongo and I was so moved, it’s such a beautiful song and melody, but also just the story I just was so inspired by, in many ways. It made me reflect on the sacrifices that women are forced to make for their own agency and freedom and how far women are willing to go to make a stand against being-

John Murch:
Basically being owned.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. Exactly. And so when I was going through my own journey of identifying who I was as a woman and trying to gain agency in a new context, made me think of that story. And then that expanded into other stories like the suffragettes and not only women, but just people who have been discriminated against and power taken away from them and how they’ve done just really heroic and amazing sacrifices. For me, Rise Up is a call for action for us to remember the sacrifices that were made and to keep fighting and not to give up and to understand where we are and how we got here. Thanks to some really amazing acts from people that have come before us and what we must continue to do for those who come after us.

John Murch:
Let me ask then, because we’re talking about texts there, we’re talking about reading, understanding, looking in the past, but what are you reading at the moment? What’s consuming you in the way of texts that you’ve been reading and maybe inspiring the music that you’re continuing to make?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Well, reading, I’m really into psychology actually, so yeah,

John Murch:
That’s why I said the word text. I was just like, we’re not talking about the latest Trent Dalton.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
No. I’m interested in psychology, but I guess also I’ve been reading some poems by Liz Berry called The Republic of Motherhood because another project that I’m working on is called The Mother Project, and it’s about investigating the modern day motherhood experience and what that is now. And I’m particularly interested in the economy and invisibility of care and what that means on a larger scale for women in society and what we value, I guess. I wanted to shine a light on some really broken things that we’re still dealing with as women. When I hear people say, “Oh, why is there still a gender pay gap?” And it’s like, “Well, as soon as women become parents…” There’s a lot of study done about this now. But as soon as women become parents, their earning potential goes down, their superannuation drops dramatically. For men, it’s different. It’s the opposite actually. Often, they get promotions and their earning potential goes up. And I just really wanted to shine a light on what motherhood really is now and what we’re dealing with.

John Murch:
Can I then ask, how much of that reflects on what parenthood should be?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
It’s a tricky one. I’ve got a lot of feelings around this because also I had a home birth and I believe in, I really wanted to breastfeed my kids. And so there are certain choices that I made that meant that my experience of parenthood was a certain way.

John Murch:
It was very hands on. Very much there.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. And then there are people who have different choices around that. I’m sure you can have a choice, but then that raises the question of who is missing out there? You can’t really layer on judgement of saying, it’s better to breastfeed your kids than feed them a formula or whatever because not everyone can breastfeed their children. But it’s like, we don’t know yet what’s best for children’s development, whether it’s good for them to go to childcare really early or whether it’s good for them to be breastfed for a longer amount of time or whatever. Anyway, it’s a pretty delicate topic.

John Murch:
But it’s interesting that even now we don’t know and we’ve been having kids being born for so many years, that we still don’t know what’s best.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. And I guess it’s tricky because I’m trying to justify my choices, which is a whole other thing because that’s pressure from society to justify why I chose, maybe it’s my fault and my choice that I tied myself so much to my kids, which impacted my earning potential and my career progression. Maybe other women make other choices, which impacts their relationship with their kids potentially, but their career is less affected. I don’t know. But I think the bottom line is that the whole carer role is not valued in society and we’re still evaluating women’s success on male values. So it’s like you’re a successful woman if you’re a CEO of a company, you’re a successful woman if you are earning the same as a man. But we should be valuing more the role of the carer, which can be done by the men and the women or anyone.
But I think the very fact that it’s not valued, that people aren’t putting their hands up to do it willingly. And more and more companies and organisations are offering paternity leave and things like that to try and get an equality, but no men are really taking them up on that offer. And there’s huge questions around that. It’s very unusual when a man takes paternity leave. But no, it’s just expected that the woman will do it. And there’s biology that has a role to play in that because the woman still has to bear and birth the child and only breastfeed the child and things like that. So physically we are tired in that way, but I think a lot happens in those early stages where the woman has no choice in the matter of how involved she’s in that immediate parenting. And then it’s very difficult to regain equality after that period.

John Murch:
What kind of realisation will this Mother Project take on board? Is it a tour? Is it an album? Is it a-

Jessica O’Donoghue:
So at the moment I’ve got some great funding to basically create or develop the concept. And the concept is a multidisciplinary music based stage work. So not an opera, but like an opera, I suppose. Opera is a bit of a dirty word in mind. So it’s composing on it and I’ve got other artists composing Jane Sheldon, Alyx Dennison, Bree van Reyk and Naty Simpson. Musically, it’s a really eclectic, multifaceted interpretation. And then we are working with a director, a designer.

John Murch:
What’s your palette when it comes to music?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
It all starts with a voice because I’m just obsessed with the voice.

John Murch:
So voice first for you?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. And I think for me it’s just such an immediate connection because it’s just human to human. The voice has so much power in that and it’s so expressive and it’s also my instrument of choice, so I just know it intimately. And then I would say beat and rhythm. For me, singing and drums are the core of human expression-

John Murch:
That global element.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yes, exactly. It’s like tribal, it’s like if you reduce everything down, everyone loves to wax stuff and dance to a groove and everyone connects to the human voice. So they’re just the two essential core musical powerful elements.

John Murch:
Well, the beat of a mother’s heart’s one of the first things people hear.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah, exactly. And then in that I just love anything and everything I can get my hands on to express emotions in a really powerful way. So that’s when I draw on synths and I use a lot of vocal harmony to really create tension and release in my music.

John Murch:
What about a visual album then? Is that in the works?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yes. Rise Up was created as a long form work. It was really about the whole album experience and we really created it with that in mind. So it is a nonstop musical experience. That’s the deluxe listening experience. So if you’re streaming on Spotify, you need to go to the very bottom track, which says Continuous Album Mix.

John Murch:
That’s why the full album is there again.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
That’s the whole… Yeah.

John Murch:
There’s a reason why there’s a repeat because as you’re saying, that’s the actual blended mix.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yes. And it has transition tracks in it, so unheard bits of music that connect the separate songs that you hear previously listed in Spotify. So it’s a tricky one because Spotify and streaming really just have annihilated the art of album making.

John Murch:
I assume the CD is that experience.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
It is. That’s exactly right.

John Murch:
Brilliant.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
To support that kind of almost 40 minute listening experience, I’m working with a beautiful director, Saskia Burmeister.

John Murch:
Where should we know them from?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Well, she actually did my Good Grief video clip. Yeah, she’s a beautiful director, artist, filmmaker. So we’ve got an album length film coming out, but I really wanted it to be an evolution of the album too. So I gave her a rough idea of the narrative and my personal journey, but also gave her complete freedom to evolve that story and make it into a film.

John Murch:
That excites you because that’s that collaboration thing. As we’ve said right at the beginning, Jessica starts with the idea but then is quite willing to invite other people along.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
I love that.

John Murch:
But that’s where the magic happens.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. Exactly. For me, that’s so exciting. And this idea of more art being born from art and inspiring each other and creating a community that’s thriving of artists is my happy place.

John Murch:
What was the last song or album you listened to?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
I just listened to Lior’s Compassion, which I love. Yeah. And Nigel Westlake. Yeah.

John Murch:
Have you performed with Lior?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
No, I haven’t, but a lot of my friends have, playing his band, but I haven’t personally.

John Murch:
I wanted to ask about chamber music. I think I know, but I’ll ask the question. What is chamber music and how does it differentiate from any other experience of the classical form?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Well, chamber music, I guess, is just on a small scale. So a chamber orchestra is a smaller version of a full orchestra. And I guess that facilitates a more intimate connection between the artists and a more artist led kind of performance. So rather than always requiring a conductor at the front, you can just feel each other a bit more like a band.

John Murch:
That’s what I liked about your work with Coda and all that that was coming out around that time. It did feel like if not improvisation, at least there could be a change in the live performance where it was required.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Oh yeah, Coda were very improv based and lots of jamming and just rough, loose structures was always different every time we performed them. Yeah, it’s great.

John Murch:
Where to from now, Jessica? So the album is out, we’ve got a new single on the way. What’s coming up after the single? So the single is the next focus for you?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah.

John Murch:
Because now you can get back into it. You found your mojo.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah.

John Murch:
The kids are getting older. “Oh, I’ve got to worry about them, do I?”

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Well, the older they get, the more trouble they are, I tell you.

John Murch:
“What do you mean, you want to be a singer?”

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Please, no. Don’t do it.

John Murch:
But on a serious note, what is the focus? So the single’s the next focus.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah, I’m going to release the single and also work on releasing the film and we’re going to tour the film. So it’s going to be a nice event. So I’ll actually tour the film and then follow it with a very stripped back acoustic.

John Murch:
What do you enjoy cooking?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
What do I enjoy cooking?

John Murch:
I had a daydream, you and another special guest, I don’t know who it was, I think it was maybe a director of a symphony, someone in that ilk, on The Cook Up with Adam Liaw.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Oh, wow.

John Murch:
I had this daydream, I was there going-

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Make it happen.

John Murch:
And I don’t know why you were making seafood.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
I’ll tell you what I enjoy cooking is a curry. I love cooking Indian curries. And I cook them from scratch. We had friends over the other night and I cooked four different, amazing curries. All from scratch, I spent all day.

John Murch:
Okay. Was it based on the same?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
No. And I spent all day and I was just loving myself sick doing that. And they were so good. And yeah, curries. I love to cook a curry. I love to eat a curry.

John Murch:
Can you break down one or two of these curries?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Well, one was a lamb style curry, one was fish and veggie. I made a Brinjal, which is the eggplant curry.

John Murch:
Okay. And is that for those that are vegan?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah. Well, it’s always nice to have a veggie in the mix, isn’t it?

John Murch:
Yes.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah.

John Murch:
So what’s your favourite vegetable to work with then?

Jessica O’Donoghue:
I do love an eggplant, I’m going to say because it can do so many different things. I quite like to make baba ganoush and you just chuck the whole thing in the oven and it just roasts and then you scoop it out and it’s so good. And how I made this Brinjal was cutting it up and roasting at first and then it gets this amazing flavour.

John Murch:
What was the most valuable thing you learned during all that university and high school, particularly university time? Because you were there, as we said at the start, for a while.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
I think for me it was largely connected to… What do I want to say about that? Well, I learned a lesson by being part of Renaissance Players, which was this early music group, but it was really unceremonious. It was just Winsome treated early Baroque, Renaissance music, like pop music. And our concerts were this big dance party. And I just really loved that it was about finding authenticity and really smashing away preconceived ideas about ancient things and showing that you can interact with it in a contemporary, current way. Because what’s timeless is humans connection to music and dance and partying and entertainment and all that sort of stuff. And so I think that that’s really lived and breathed in everything that I do because I do draw from classical music and early works and ancient things. But I really like to bring it into a current context that is relevant, that we can connect to in the here and now.

John Murch:
And as we’ve mentioned throughout this chat, you are using that to change the narrative a bit as well. The AIR Mentorship Programme, I think it was gendered based.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Yeah, that was really a great programme. And they’re still running it. Essentially it’s a Women in Music Mentorship Programme and it’s really connecting women in the industry with other women in the industry in a mentoring capacity. It just had an array of resources and industry information and workshops and guest speakers and everything available to all the people involved in the programme. Plus, you got paired up with a specific mentor.
And I actually got paired up with Claire Cross, who’s a Melbourne muso, bass player. She runs Women in Music jazz programmes, she’s an amazing composer. But I think we got paired up because she was in multi-genre world like I am. And she also traverses being a composer and a performer, but also running artistic programmes and facilitating larger artistic collaborations and projects. So we really connected on all those levels. And it was just great to share stories, learn from each other and just be part of a community of females and women in music to get a sense of belonging and ownership. You should check out her music actually, it’s super cool.

John Murch:
Jessica, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for joining radionotes here in Sydney, New South Wales.

Jessica O’Donoghue:
Thanks John.

AI summary – provided by REV – of what we covered in the chat: Jessica O’Donoghue, a musician and performer, discusses her early experiences with music and the influence of her musical family. She talks about the hands-off approach her parents took in encouraging her musical pursuits and the mentors who inspired her along the way. O’Donoghue also discusses her shift from opera to composition and her current projects, including her album “Rise Up” and her work on the Mother Project, which explores modern motherhood. She also touches on the challenges of being a performer and the importance of valuing the role of caregivers in society. O’Donoghue concludes by discussing her upcoming projects, including a film and a tour

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